Freedom isn’t free?

As many of you have probably figured out, I care quite a bit about the well being of the racing industry in this state. Without it, my life (and this blog) gets a whole lot less interesting in a hurry.

As such, I want to make sure things are run properly and efficiently by those in charge. 

With a rash of budget cuts this year, and undoubtedly more to come in the future, I became concerned, especially with figures indicating the money going into Lansing wasn’t the same as the money coming out.

Because of this, I filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the Michigan Office of Racing Commissioner on June 15 requesting the ORC’s budgets for the last few years and information on some leads I wanted to further investigate. A few days later, I received a call from the ORC asking to resend my request and be more specific regarding what I wanted. This was understandable. After having it explained to me, my request was rather vague.

On June 23, I re-sent my FOIA request asking for the following items…

– Itemized lists of ORC revenues and expenditures by fiscal year 2005-2009.
– Records of Information Technology expenditures from 2006 fiscal year – present.
– Recored pertaining to what labs Equine Drug tests are sent and at what cost for the current and previous fiscal years.

A few days later, I got a letter back from the ORC. It said they had received my request, but here is the part of the letter where it gets interesting…

“The ORC is unable to respond to your request within the five business day time limit set forth by the FOIA statute, because of unavailability of staff. Therefore, we are extending the response time frame and will comply with your request on or before July 17, 2009.”

Okay, times are tough. I get that. So I played the waiting game.

Last Saturday, I got a letter in the mail from the ORC. The envelope seemed too small for all the information I had asked for. That’s because it wasn’t there. Instead, there was one piece of paper.

The following letter is presented verbatim to the one sent to me from the ORC. The only edits I have made are to contact information in order to protect the involved parties. I have also bolded some of the key points….

Dear Mr. Nevills,

Your request for information under the Freedom of Information Act was received in our office on June 24, 2009. You requested copies of “Itemized lists of ORC revenues & expendentures by fiscal year 2005-2009 Records of Information Technology expenditures from 2006 fiscal year – present Records pertaining to what labs Equine drug tests are sent and at what cost for the current and previous fiscal years”.

Your request has been approved.

Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, Act 422 of 1976, 15.234. Fees; waiver; deposit, computation of costs; application of section Sec. 4. (2) A public body may require at the time a request is made a good faith deposit from the person requesting the public record or series of public records, if the fee authorized under this section exceeds $50.00. The deposit shall not exceed 1/2 of the total fee.

We estimate the total amount of fulfilling this request to be $578.01. The charge is based on

– Approximately 12 hours of staff time for searching and reviewing documents: $521.82
– Approximately 4 hours of staff time for copying at $6.24/half hour: $49.92
– An estimated 120 copies at $.05 per page:  $6.00
– 3 – 10 x 13 Kraft envelopes $0.27
– Postage has not yet been calculated

We will require a good faith deposit of $289.00. When we receive the deposit, we will begin researching your request and then forward any documents resulting from the search. Your check should be made to State of Michigan and sent to the Michigan Department of Agriculture, P.O. Box *****, Lansing, Michigan 48909. Please reference FOIA 09-15a on the check. If you have any questions, please call me at ***-***-****.

Before we go on, let’s do a little math…

– $521.82 for staff time searching and reviewing documents / 12 hours = $43.49 per hour
– $49.92 for staff time copying / 4 hours = $12.48 per hour

I am by no means an economist, but if the state is paying someone $12.48 an hour to run copies, I believe I have found the cause for Michigan’s budget deficit. Either that, or Michigan has the best paid interns among the nation’s state governments and I would like to know where to submit my application.

The same goes for the fee to search for documents. Many of the items I requested (at least the revenues and expenditures) should be readily available in case of government audit, and should not require someone who would be among the highest paid individuals in my hometown 12 hours to retrieve them. Even if a team of three or four people were splitting the $43.49/hour, they would still be getting paid quite well for their work. However, if the ORC is as understaffed as its first letter would lead me to believe, I doubt this would be a group effort.

The fact that the hours are estimated is also somewhat troubling. Not to question the work ethic of those who will be locating this information, but unless I am there to oversee the process myself, who is to say I am not paying for 11 hours of solitaire and email time and an hour of actual work?

Perhaps the most unsettling part of this letter is the final paragraph. Asking for money up front, then following with this sentence – “When we receive the deposit, we will begin researching your request and then forward any documents resulting from the search.” – gives me a helpless feeling. This sentence leads me to believe there is a chance I may be told “no records were found, but hey, thanks for the money!” At the racetrack, my gambling ventures rarely exceed a $4 exacta box. Am I willing to gamble $289 on something I might be told isn’t there? Either way, is the information worth that much?

Just to put this all into perspective, during my Public Affairs Reporting class last semester, I was assigned to cover the Isabella County Road Commission for my beat. As part of the class, I had to analyze the commission’s budget. I sent the Manager an email and picked up a copy from the secretary’s desk the next day. No cost. Granted, I am asking for considerably more information here, but the cost and difficulty of this process is quite a change from the Road Commission’s relative ease. 

I do not make any money from this blog. I did not request the information for any person or organization but myself. Any personal gain I would receive from the information would strictly be the pursuit of truth and transparency. Like I said, I just want this industry to survive and thrive.

Don’t worry, I’m not asking for money to pay for this. I would, however appreciate any advice regarding my request and its cost from anyone more versed in FOIA law than myself.

Here are a few points that immediately came to my mind…

– Is this an attempt to scare me off? If so, is there anything I can do about it?
– If there is no way to bring the cost down, are there any organizations that assist with FOIA costs? Would this be something of interest to the ACLU (and do you really think the ORC wants them on their back)?
–  Most importantly, is the ORC playing within the rules by asking for so much money? I would have no problem covering the cost of materials, but venturing well into three digits seems frivolous.

I do not want to be on the Racing Commission’s bad side. I really don’t. Before this, they have been nothing but good to me. But I feel like I am not being treated properly in this spot.



Filed under Commentary, Politics

29 responses to “Freedom isn’t free?

  1. Can’t you go to Lansing and research this yourself? They’ll still charge you for copies, of course, and you’ll be out the gas and time, but it’d still be cheaper.

    It seems as if a lot of this should be available online.

  2. As an archivist, I have to say that this doesn’t sound all that unusual – even at a university, we charge researchers $20/hour for anything that’s going to take more than an hour, and photocopies are a quarter each. Scans go for $12 each and we’re actually on the cheaper end – many government agencies charge more, depending on the circumstances.

    The biggest sticking point is figuring out what ‘category’ you fall into as the person requesting the files – if you can prove you are a student or work for a non-profit you may be able to get a reduced fee (or they may even waive it).

    Odd as it may seem to someone outside the profession, fulfilling these requests requires considerable training and experience – we all have master’s degrees (even if it sometimes seems like we have degrees in using a photocopier), cameras and scanning equipment require time and money to buy and run and in all likelihood the person whose full-time job it was to do it was recently fired (so someone else is doing it when they get to it).

    That’s not to say I don’t sympathize with your request – I most certainly do think you should have access to this information – but I’m not at all surprised they want reimbursement for it.

  3. wilderness

    As somebody who has digitized more than 19,000 harness racing photo’s and OCR’d 15,000 articles on harness racing, neither am I surprised by estimated total cost and the required “up front payment”.

    With two websites, many of the requests for information that I get are both absurd and vague. The result is material references in which the inquire has little interest.
    Even dating the supporting excerpts and/or documents requires additional time spent.
    The mere mention of fees ends most communications.

  4. BJChicago


    Just stumbled across your site. I enjoy it. I’m a Chicagoian who used to frequent Muskegon/GLD on vacation.

    As someone focused on IL racing, one thing that jumped out at me while taking a quick read of the MI racing annual report is shown below:

    IL (582 total race days)
    Salaries/benefits $1.5mm
    Drug testing/supervision $5.6mm

    MI (376 total race days)
    Salaries/benefits $2.7mm (!)
    Drug testing/supervision $251k (!)

    Seems to me that you should focus your inquiries of the ORC on why MI officials deserve such high pay (or more bodies) and how much “drug testing” is really occurring. (or is IL really spending too much, lol)

    Good luck.

  5. You live in a FOIL un-friendly state. In NY, where I live, we only can be charged a maximum of 25 cents per page, per other states have enacted legislation to legally increase the costs for records to the public:

    For example, where you live, in Michigan, the State provides that a local government may charge for duplication, mailing, and labor costs when the failure to charge a fee would result in an unreasonably high cost to the public body.

    You can be a pest and just deluge them with FOIL requests, for instance FOIL them on how they determined the costs, ask for a full auditing as you dispute the charges.

  6. Concerned

    As someone who used to do/and still does FOIA requests for the State, seems like your bill is quite high. I wonder why? Maybe the info you are asking for is making someone a wee bit nervous and if the bill is high enough, the info requested can be kept on a technically. You have the right to make an appointment (many State departments do this including ORC) to look over this information and pick out what you want or need. This way they don’t need to make unnecessary copies, waste your time and not theirs and this process will cut your costs. Good Luck.

  7. mibredclaimer


    I have not explored this option, but I’ll pitch it to them when I reply. Like I said, I have no problem paying for the cost of materials. It’s that hourly wage that’s the killer.

    They do have budgets available online, but I want to go deeper than what the annual reports offer.


    I believe my student ID and the big checks I send to CMU twice a year ought to be enough to prove I am a student. I don’t recall seeing anything on the FOIA form asking if I was a student or non-profit, but I can definitely give it a shot. Thanks for the tip.

    I understand there are some man/hours involved in fulfilling these requests, and that it is a specialized field, but I would have to be incredibly satisfied with the results and have it all come with an ice cream cone to justify paying someone $43.49 an hour to do the searching.

    Either way, I appreciate the perspective from someone on the other side of the fence. Very enlightening.


    I noticed on the FOIA form it says “be as specific as possible.” After getting things corrected by the ORC the first time around, I think my request was detailed and reasonable enough to be executed in a reasonably quick and efficient manner. Heck, I’d be thrilled to get some extra materials that were not of direct interest to what I was looking for. Who knows? It could end up giving me a new lead.

    The thing that concerns me is the information I am asking for is fairly recent. I am not asking them to dust off the old book of records from before I was born and make me scans. The things I am looking for should be at or near the top of the proverbial stack, if not readily available.


    Glad you like the site!

    That is some very telling information. I believe I addressed both of those factors in my request, so perhaps we’ll get more in depth on this in the future.

    It would be interesting to see how each state stacks up in spending on these two categories. It would have to be averaged by day because of the differences in race dates state to state, but still, it would be neat to compare. Perhaps I could turn that into a post during the slow winter months.


    I’ve found when it comes to the government, I live in a just-about-everything-unfriendly state. With Michigan’s sorry economic condition, the state government’s looking to snatch up every dime it can get right now.

    I really don’t want to take the pest route, but if all else fails, it’s definitely an option. Thanks for the idea.


    It does feel a bit like an attempt to scare me off the trail, doesn’t it? I might try seeing if I can look for the documents myself. However, if the sticker shock price really is a scare tactic, I would figure the last thing they’d want is for me to have free rein on the records. Hopefully I am wrong on this.

  8. ragman

    Try re-directing your concerns in another direction. Let’s try the horsemen. Where are the entries? Monday 51 horses ran in 8 races with only 2 races having the required 7 or more to have super wagering. The 3rd had 4 horses go to the post with only win/place wagering allowed. It was pretty bad today. Tomorrow will be worse. Entries didn’t show up till late Saturday night so most probably there was a lot of arm twisting going on. As of now there are 50 entries for the 8 races. There will be scratches. Only one race as of now is eligible for super wagering. Only 4 races can have trifectas.
    I don’t know if you(or Mr. Campbell) understand the importance of having decent racing cards on Monday and Tuesday when the more popular tracks are closed for live racing and their customers become simulcast bettors. As an example Monday Yavapai Downs attracted $682,626 in wagers from outside the state. Pinnacle’s TOTAL wagering for Monday was $220,220.
    This is Pinnacles 2nd year and they just last week went to a 4 day week. Who is in those barns? Where are the entries?
    If Pinnacle closes who will we blame.
    So Mr. Mi-bred a letter to the HBPA please…

    Any chance you could inquire at Arlington and the OTBs and find out why they don’t carry Pinnacle in Illinois. There should be some interest with all the Chicago ship-ins Pinnacle gets. With the lack of outlets carrying Pinnacle I wonder about the competency of their sales(?) people.

    • BJChicago

      Pinnacle is carried at Intertrack OTBs in Illinois(Intertrack is the assoc of Hawthorne and the harness tracks), which have 5 of the 7 largest OTBs in IL. So Pinnacle does have a presence in IL. I can’t tell you why Arlington/CDI doesn’t carry Pinnacle, though it isn’t the only track not carried by CDI (Colonial Downs being one) and I suspect the fall-out has something to do with the whole Tracknet/ADW issue.

      Ragman is correct, a track like Pinnacle needs to win over the simulcast crowd during the dark days (see Indiana Downs & Prairie Meadows’ handle on Mon/Tues vs their weekend cards) otherwise they will not survive.

    • ROX

      If there are no supers or tris and short fields no one will want to waste their simulcasting space.
      They won’t run a five horse field here unless it scratches down to it, even if it’s a stake.

  9. QQ

    It looks like access to all sorts of information may soon get tougher in Michigan. On July 13, Governor Granholm signed an executive order abolishing Michigan’s Department of History, Arts and Libraries (Michigan Governor Eliminates State Library Department.) The Michigan Department of History, Arts and Libraries will be gone Oct. 1.

    The order specifically requires cost-saving measures such as eliminating circulation of specific collections housed in the State Library, eliminating circulation and document delivery of materials from the law collection, eliminating participation in the state-wide interlibrary loan program, and eliminating (or transferring) the Federal Documents Depository collection.

    The executive order also creates something called the Michigan Center for Innovation and Reinvention, whose task is to preserve the state library’s resources and “to explore creative and innovative ideas” for using them.

    You can read the executive order on the state’s website (pdf). Currently, there is no charge to access the document online.

  10. Leigh Ann

    from past practices, you should contact your State Senator and have them request the information you seek. As a courtesy the agencys will give this information at no charge to the Senator. Hope this helps

  11. mibredclaimer


    Believe me, I’ve suffered through those weekday cards the same as everyone else. However, Pinnacle is far from the only track going through a horse shortage. Take a look at Hollywood Park’s card from last Sunday. Five of the nine races didn’t offer superfecta wagering and the graded stakes race drew four entries with no scratches. Belmont’s Saturday card wasn’t much better, and these are weekend cards on major circuits with far more horses to draw from than Pinnacle. That doesn’t let Pinnacle off the hook, but they’re far from the only ones in that boat.

    I’m not on the backstretch all that often, so I can’t tell you with any authority if trainers are “keeping them in the barn,” but if you notice, a very similar cast of characters is put in the gates week in and week out. Perhaps the problem isn’t that they’re not running them, maybe the population just isn’t there.

    I know it’s a tired line, but think about all the horses we lost to Presque Isle. I would suspect Pinnacle lost about a horse and a half per race that would have started there if PID wasn’t such a draw.

    And believe me, I know about how important it is to put out good weekday cards. Great Lakes Downs was consistently among the nation’s leading weekday simulcast tracks. One advantage GLD had over Pinnacle was it could run at night, so people with jobs (which also means disposable income) could go to the OTB after work. That opens up a whole new audience.


    In times of uncertainty, it seems like the libraries are always among the first things to get the axe, doesn’t it? I must admit I’m pretty bummed to hear about the interlibrary loan.

    I wonder if that Center for Innovation and Reinvention (sounds like something out of 1984, doesn’t it?) is the state’s twisted way of saying it’s creating jobs? Never mind we just laid off 150 state employees, look at these 30 new office jobs we just created!

    Thanks for the links! Glad to see something from the state is still free of charge.

    Leigh Ann,

    That’s a good idea. My representative, Mike Huckleberry, has been very receptive to the plight of the racing industry. Perhaps I’ll try to get a hold of him. Thanks for the tip!

  12. It’s not really fair to compare Pinnacle’s situation with Hollywood Park.

    Pinnacle is in the middle of its racing season while Hollywood Park was ending. Owners want to race at Del Mar, so why get a horse jacked up for a race at Hollywood? A lot of the air went out of the meet, too, when it was clear the owners have no interest in racing.

    The Santa Anita meet was strong, and Del Mar will surely rebound after a down year last year.

    The Michigan racing scene wishes it could compare itself to racing in South Texas let alone Southern California.

  13. horsesrsmarterthanpeople

    The commission is just trying to circumvent providing this information. Please keep trying. Maybe the horsemen would even pool some resources to make this possible. One more question: Now that Christine White has resigned, where does the remainder of her salary go for the 2009 fiscal year? Shouldn’t that be additional funds for the ORC?

  14. EJXD2, If I am not mistaken Hollywood Park had to cancell some dates early in the meet and drop one day a week for the entire meet due to a horse shortage. I agree the last few days horsemen have been aiming for Del Mar, but there was a problem early on.

    One thing that is getting to me as a better is the lack of horses at Pinnacle creating very low pay outs. It is not worth the effort for a handicapper to handicap a Pinnacle card.

  15. Hollywood did cancel a day of races, as did Churchill. Del Mar also cut back on its typical six-day scheduled to five days a week.

    These tracks addressed the problem of too much racing in North America. Pinnacle’s existence is part of this problem.

  16. ROX

    Who would bet a short field? They don’t run less than six here, unless there are scratches. Why doesn’t Pinnacle stop the horses there from going to Presque Isle, like they did Mt Pleasant when they owned Great-Lakes?
    Wake up, Michigan. You need a big fix.

  17. abs

    The public body or agency has a responsibility to provide reasonable facilities so that persons making a request may examine and take notes from public records. The facilities must be available during the normal business hours of the public body.

  18. abs

    from the first amendment center

    The first category of requester includes representatives of the news media; educational institutions; and noncommercial scientific institutions. This type of requester pays only standard document-duplication charges. Journalists, authors and scholars are also the requesters most normally eligible for a fee waiver, if the information they request is “likely to contribute significantly to public understanding of the operations or activities of the government,” and if they have the ability to disseminate that information to the public.

    The second category includes public-interest groups; nonprofit organizations; and individuals seeking information for personal use. These requesters are assessed fees for document duplication and for the time it takes to carry out the search.

    Mich. Comp. Laws § 15.234 (1997).
    Fees. A public body may charge a fee for “a public record search, the necessary copying of a public record for inspection or for providing a copy of a public record.” Fees are limited to “actual mailing costs and to the actual incremental cost of duplication or publication including labor, the cost of the search, examination, review, and the deletion and separation of exempt from nonexempt information.” Search fees may be waived if the public body determines that it is in the public interest to do so. A deposit may be required. Fees for personnel costs shall be no more than the hourly wage of the lowest paid public employee capable of performing the task. A public body shall utilize the most economical means of making copies.

  19. ragman

    The best person to ask why Pinnacle doesn’t try to stop the locals from going to Presque Isle would be Pinnacle Chairman and CEO Felicia (Lisa) Campbell. On Sat 7/18 the 2nd race at Pinnacle was a 8k claimer sprint for Mi-breds nw2 which drew 6 starters. Lisa Campbell didn’t own one of the 6.
    The next night at Presque Isle in a 7.5k claimer sprint for nw2 Last Match a Mi-bred ran last beaten 20+ lengths. Anyone want to guess WHO owns Last Match?

    How is Pinnacle’s existence part of the problem?
    Suppose we close Pinnacle tomorrow. The shortage of horses would be alleviated at what tracks? Where would the Pinnacle simulcast bettors go? Would they be required to bet CD,Del Mar or Saratoga? The horses, where would they go? The only place a great many of them run is at Pinnacle. What happens to them?
    The real problem with horseracing now is that anyone with a good(?) horse trys to get them to the breeding shed as soon as possible with as few losses as possible. The only way they can accomplish this is try and pick their spots. In this years Ky Derby the 19 starters had been on the track an average of less than 7 times in 2 years. In the 1970 Derby(Dust Commander) the average was 16 starts. Round Table, Sword Dancer and Nodouble all lost over 20 races. They competed and dodged no one. They were all Champions.
    This years Derby field has almost vanished. Run Papa Clem against who? You gotta be kidding. Thank God for Mountaineer and Mine That Bird. Bird.
    Good Night.

  20. horsesrsmarterthanpeople

    Poor Lisa Campbell. She is damned if she does race here and damned if she doesn’t race here. I do think though that if you are allocated stalls at Pinnacle, you should be required to run those horses at Pinnacle and not use the track as a training facility. Short fields are partly the result of the indecision of the ORC of just how long the meet would run. Trainers requested stalls elsewhere and planned accordingly when it looked like the Pinnacle meet would be short lived. You cannot blame them either.

  21. Ragman:

    I’m glad Detroit has a track, but a five-month meet? It’s ridiculous.

  22. mibredclaimer


    Great Lakes Downs ran non-stop from May to November and rarely did they send out short fields as consistently as Pinnacle.

    Unlike most of the other neighboring states, there is no circuit for MI-breds to go make money elsewhere (Mt. Pleasant doesn’t count). Pinnacle is it, so the meet has to be longer to accommodate. If Detroit was only open for three months, then everybody shifted to Ohio, Indiana, or Presque Isle, breeders and stallion owners wouldn’t make enough money from the Michigan’s in-state-only programs to dream of breaking even.

    Now, if GLD were still around, Pinnacle’s meet would likely be shorter, Michigan could switch off between the two, and the horsemen would make their money while keeping the product fresh in both locations.


    I would assume the funds used to pay the former commissioner would go toward paying whoever fills in for the interim until the next governor appoints someone permanently.

    I agree with you about the stall allocations. It is hard to plan for the future when the future gets changed every few days. Once you get those stalls at other tracks, it would take a lot to make giving them up to go back to Detroit make sense.


    I hear you about the payoffs. Watching the pick five carryover rise by a hundred bucks or so per day is a pretty good indicator that the low payoffs are scaring off bettors. It’s kind of a catch 22. Bettors are staying away because of the low payouts, but the payouts are so low because people aren’t putting money into the pools.


    I wouldn’t doubt having the two tracks in the same state made it easier for track ownership to keep the horses there. The fact that GLD offered bigger purses than MPM surely helped as well.


    Thanks for the information. I may end up just going down to Lansing and looking for the documents myself. I think I have a case for being labeled a journalist and/or student, though, and anything I post would contribute to the understanding of how the ORC operates, so I might have a road there as well.

    Good stuff there. Much appreciated.


    You make some valid points. How much does it say about the track when its own owners are running elsewhere for bigger purse money?

    You’re right about Pinnacle’s effect on the industry as well. These horses wouldn’t be headed to the NYRA tracks or California tracks if Pinnacle didn’t exist. The most likely destinations would be Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Illinois. Indiana and Penn. aren’t having serious field issues and only the best in the state could earn their keep at a Chicago track.

    If people want to talk about horse shortage problems, they need to look at Ohio running two tracks a few hours apart at the same time for most of the year. While the 7 and 7 deal was a good idea to keep the tracks from competing against one another, both are putting out six and seven horse fields of the same caliber horses when they could be putting out full fields going one track at a time on a circuit.

  23. scott

    i was told by my trainer that ohio had approved slots and had a plan to start in jan..its this or death for racing in mi..look at the purses at penn. national…amazing,both there and charles town have an average of 12 entries per race hmmmm. and the communites around the tracks are this really so hard to figure out

  24. Rox

    Ohio has to award contracts for operation of slots, which could take a while. Look at Aqueduct. But it is all a step in the right direction, if slots are the answer. If Campbells had not opened Pinnacle there would be no place to run “if” slots are approved in Michigan. It could happen. But a bigger horse population will still be needed, and a good contract.

  25. ragman

    I don’t see slots happening in Ohio. They just got the ok to put a referendum on the Nov ballot for a yes or no vote for four casinos. If this loses as it has in the past it shows anti-gambling preferences from the public and makes overturning any current efforts to bypass the public’s say easy.
    What would a Michigan slots law look like?

  26. W. Edward Wendover

    State Rep. Mike “Huck” Huckleberry is now aware of your FOIA request to the Dept. of Ag’s Racing Commissioner office.
    He does NOT approve of outrageous FOIA charges for the peoples’ information. Huck also happens to be Vice Chair of the House Ag Committee and Co-chair of the bi-partisan, bi-cameral Equine Caucus.
    Please call me, Huck’s Chief of Staff, to fix this! It’s even TOLL FREE to get Huck’s help: 877-HUCK-70th
    We look forward to enlisting your help for the Equine Caucus efforts to save horseracing in Michigan.

    — Ed Wendover

  27. mibredclaimer

    W. Edward Wendover,

    Thanks so much for your, and Mr. Huckleberry’s, interest in this. It means a lot. I’ll give you a call this week. Also, I would be glad to assist with the Equine Caucus. I look forward to discussing it with you when I call.

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